A question to the largely Dutch community of ORCT2

[SensualEthiopianPolice]

How is Zwarte Piet a thing?! Why did you let this happen?!

[imlegos]

What's so special about Black Pete?

[Wuis]

Black Pete is something we see as our culture, they are man-servants to Sinterklaas. Yes, they probably originated from slaves but we do not mean so nor knew that they still interpreted this. Though, I do not see why you would connect such to something so old, as that seems more a personal issue than an issue depending on the holiday. My opinion on it is that it either stays as it is/was or just completely disappears, I see that it could be seen as racist but also see that they're bothering themselves about the smallest things.

I think the largest hiccup in the whole discussion is that there a several origins to the story as it's about a holy man, Saint Nicholas, who lived a few hundred years ago. Aside from that there is quite some differences in several ethnicities as some don't acknowledge they're Dutch and some don't want foreigners in the country. It's kind of making me paranoid as I am getting really aware to who is what ethnicity and what not, I wouldn't care normally but now I get really judgemental of advertisements and movies.

Welp. >.< 

[YoloSweggLord]

I don't get it.

[Wuis]

No, I wasn't supposed to post that. I'l was tired. The closest situation I could get it to for Americans is the holiday where you are first friends with the natives to later backstab them. Imagine a large discussion starting about the existence of that day and what not.

[Broxzier]

The black Pete discussion is there because of political correctness. Every year around this time (-1 month perhaps) this discussion arises and some people really heat up about it, so I guess if people think it's really this important, we're doing pretty good (as in, we're not busy with actually important bad things).

My two cents in this is, just leave it as it is, nobody would think of Black Petes as slaves. As a child I've always believed they loved their jobs and stuff, I never linked it with slavery before, nor did I care that they are black.

There is this old song about White Petes, and in there it even says that the white ones are so bad they are not allowed to come to the Netherlands to bring presents by Saint Nicolas. I guess I'm just trying to say that people link it with discrimination in some way, which is not relevant.

[SensualEthiopianPolice]

Well my biggest qualm with it is that Black Pete is actually Moorish but the blackface depictions typically give him Sub Saharan features. Also, the idea that slaves enjoyed their work is a dangerous thought, considering European powers genuinely believed they were bringing civilization to uncivilized peoples and they were better because of it. American slave owners also convinced themselves that their slaves enjoyed themselves on plantations rather than in Africa

[imlegos]

...Why does this sorta sound like a mix of Santa Claus's elves, and House Elves from Harry Potter?

[Broxzier]

It's not slaves enjoying their work, it's Saint Nicolas' workers that enjoy it. In all situations we can see (television, movies, comics, even live figures) Saint Nicolas is very nice to them, and the black Petes enjoy their work very clearly.

There's also commonly said that black Pete's are actually black because they use the funnel to get inside (like Santa). In last year's Sinterklaas Journaal (Saint Nicolas News) there actually was the case that they could get inside houses with magic stones instead, and many black Petes weren't black anymore. But this is just a temporarily solution to get people to stop discussing this stupid topic. Children don't care, nor link it in any racial way.

I guess you can compare him with Santa and his elves, I don't know much about Santa's stories so I can't tell.

[Wuis]

"he modern Santa Claus grew out of traditions surrounding the historical Saint Nicholas, a fourth-century Greek bishop and gift-giver of Myra, the British figure of Father Christmas, the Dutch figure of Sinterklaas (himself based on Saint Nicholas), the German figure of the Christkind (a fabulized Christ Child), and the holidays of Twelfth Night and Epiphany and their associated figures of the Three Kings (based on the gift-giving Magi of the Nativity) and Befana."

Source: Wikipedia

That's why.

[cascadia]

5 hours ago, Broxzier said:

The black Pete discussion is there because of political correctness. Every year around this time (-1 month perhaps) this discussion arises and some people really heat up about it, so I guess if people think it's really this important, we're doing pretty good (as in, we're not busy with actually important bad things).

My two cents in this is, just leave it as it is, nobody would think of Black Petes as slaves. As a child I've always believed they loved their jobs and stuff, I never linked it with slavery before, nor did I care that they are black.

There is this old song about White Petes, and in there it even says that the white ones are so bad they are not allowed to come to the Netherlands to bring presents by Saint Nicolas. I guess I'm just trying to say that people link it with discrimination in some way, which is not relevant.

In the past through, people did associate it with slavery.

[imlegos]

Saint Nicholas was greek?

I never knew that...